A Reader Rants — Weirdharold Answers
Harleywood Guru commented on Benevolent Benefactor or Scammer?
since this is a public forum I will keep My response to your rumors and innuendo as PG as possible. I do hope your mouth is large enough to hold both your feet though because it appears that you open your mouth to change feet frequently and this time you have them both in there.
Weirdharold’s response: My mouth is pretty dang big, and I am pretty sure I have tried to get both feet into it before!
Now, if a scam were being done, would it make sense for the scammer to tell you not only how much money is going to be (hopefully) collected but where that money is going to as well? and make it all public so everyone can check on it?
Weirdharold’s response: I never said this was a scam. I simply asked a question. I certainly never said it was being done by anyone/team that was brilliant, nor that what they did would make sense!
I spend roughly $2,500 USD (USD=U.S.Dollars) a month running My own sim and the bulk of it is lindens given away to help residents have the money to buy the things created by the content creators.
Weirdharold’s response: And how do you “give away” the lindens. You wouldn’t be one of those people that encourage people to not log out of Second Life… to waste Linden Labs processors and bandwidth by camping or some other non productive means to “earn” Linden Dollars? In other words, manipulate the traffic listing to something irrelevant to the searcher? Are you one of those?
This in turn allows the content creators the ability to create more clever and beautiful content and the circle continues.
Weirdharold’s response: I have to state I went to your Arden Guard Den Night Club &Hang and looked around expecting to find camping chairs and dance pads. I was wrong. I met some very nice people that spoke very highly of you and your generous ways. You seem to be especially newbie friendly and generous. *struggling to get part of a foot out of my mouth*
Live performances. Have you ever done one? I think not. Because if you had you would know that content creation is also the artist singing his heart out on his own songs and sharing them with (literally) the world, for FREE. As a club owner I pay the live artists that perform in My club and 10,000 $Lindens is a normal fee for a 1 hour performance. That is about $37 USD for a 1 hour live performance by an artist doing music that they write themselves. You can’t even get one standing area concert ticket in real life for $40?
Weirdharold’s response: Yes, I have been responsible for live performances. I have been responsible for encouraging new Second Life performers and discouraging a few also. I fully understand the content creation and entertainment value of Live musicians in Second Life. If you are paying 10,000 lindens an hour, I am doubtful you are aware of the Second Life performers value. Actually there are very, very few Second Life performers which can demand that rate; usually 2000 to 4000 plus tips. And that is for doing something most of them would be happy to do free! They are entertainers, and usually the best of them doubts their own talent. I am not saying take advantage of them, but come on… you are paying for a stream that is usually way below CD quality… and we all know that the CD can be streamed… and almost always well below 37 dollars; it is the interaction with the crowd where the performer earns his reputation and money.
I buy lindens 100,000 at a time for prices around $372.46 USD so if mankind tracer actually makes 200,000 lindens and takes half for his expenses, then lets see what he has done to earn his exorbitant (by your statements) fee of about $375 USD.
Weirdharold’s response: Those are close figures compared to yesterdays closing figures on the lindex… no argument there.
And lets ignore the fact that he is setting up the way for new artists to get started for free with the other half ($375 USD) of HIS earnings.
Weirdharold’s response: O.K. — for now we will ignore it.
First off, he is performing at the concert for two hours….LIVE….. in 20+ sims simultaneously. A two hour live concert??? hmmmm you want to give Me any USD number on that? or are you thinking because you got a free account on second life that everything should be free there? Well the concert IS free to you there. All costs are paid willingly by the club owners not you.
Weirdharold’s response: OMG… Two hours! and live too? Kim Seifert does this on a regular basics. Who cares how many sims? It is only a matter of setting the media stream on the land and the number of listeners available on the stream(s). Now if you want to know about an EVENT, maybe I should call your attention to the small little goings on over at the Mill Pond and Stone Hill this weekend. The Mill Pond Folk Festival will feature 3 different stages… The Pond Stage, The Stone Hill Stage, and The Tavern Stage. Each stage starting at 3 PM SLT Friday until 9 PM SLT will feature a different performer every hour on the hour, and again Saturday starting at 12 PM SLT until 9 PM SLT … a new performer each and every hour on each stage. This event will be broadcast both in Second Life and on the Web for those not into Second Life… but it is a Second Life event being simulcast to the web. That is an EVENT!
Aren’t you making a leap making statements about free accounts on Second Life? True enough Weirdharold is a free account. How many accounts do you have?
But before that… How do you think that a live concert got started? well it had an executive producer come up with the idea, sell that idea to his capital investments group and get their input on costs and trade offs. Then that executive producer got with the sales staff and made the pitch to them and the sales staff each went out and tried to contact a sim owner in their territory and tell them about the concert and sell them on the benefit to their club. (Oh mankind tracer does pack the clubs he plays at so there is a benefit to the club.) The the sales staff got together with the production coordination team to get streams (a 2,000 listener stream for 2 hours – ah what do you think that costs weirdharold??) the install into each club simultaneously, and the tech support to back it up.
Weirdharold’s response: How much will the stream cost? I am not sure what the best deal one could find if one looked for the best deal, but I do know that my stream from Ed Lowell of the Stream Team has room for 1000 listeners and streams at a 128 bit rate cost around 15 to 17 US Dollars a month which can be paid in linden bucks… and I bet if I had a worthwhile cause… they… The Stream team would help in any way they could. (That is the basic nature of Second Life…. helping each other out)… but back to your cost of that 2 hour stream…. actual cost…. about 5 bucks would more than cover the actual expense. Install it into each club would be a matter of putting the proper url into the media information of the land…. and The Stream Team always has tech support standing by.
Now the advertising team kicks in and starts to spread the word about the concert and the goals of the visionary who is giving it. And some of that word gets to people like you weirdharold. And you take a few words from what you hear and you decide that this visionary is probably a scammer… I can only surmise that is because you are a scammer and judge all others by those standards that you have for yourself and of course the 20 club owners are too dumb to see the scam you see.
Weirdharold’s response: Take a few word? I am going to publish the exact note card I was handed in Second Life. You are right about one thing… I didn’t go into a bunch of the crap on that page. Such as, to the best of my knowledge, there is only one venue (which shall remain unnamed because I refuse to give them any publicity) charging into the $1000’s Lindens to attend an event being streamed from a Real live club where there is no interaction between the performers and the Second Life crowd. (and this venue is out begging live performers to help them get publicity, so wonder how long they will last?)
Now for that part of your statement that I put in bold italics…. You don’t know me, so I am going to pretend you didn’t even say that… assume you were just passionate for your “friend”. I think that is the way to look at such a statement.
Costs? Oh, all those people on the production team, sales team, advertising team, those people putting in their time, the seconds of their life, for something bigger than themselves…. they are all one person… mankind tracer…
Weirdharold’s response: You had me going there for a while! I was beginning to think there were a lot of others involved with this “event.” LOL, I mean I was really beginning to think maybe Mankind was simply being misled. Thanks for straightening that out.
He has a few volunteers who help but he has spent countless hours putting this together…. oh and the 20,000 Lindens bid for home base of the concert? I bid that because I believe in the idea behind the concert and I know and trust the man giving it, and selfishly, I want his avatar at MY club when it is simulcast into the other 20+ clubs, and around the entire world….
Weirdharold’s response: I am glad he has such a passionate backer. It says a lot for him when someone who seems to have your benevolent ways will stand up in public for him. I admire you for doing so.
weirdharold, I can only say that you are truly a person running you mouth with few facts and no understanding of the worth and value of the creators who make things that the rest of us enjoy. If mankind tracer takes half of the lindens spent to get his concert, he is still losing money and is getting paid about a dollar an hour NOT counting the fact that he is doing the concert. Perhaps you can volunteer your time and find out the facts before you start spreading shadows on a great idea and a man who is honestly trying to help grow the artists in second life. Those who create beautiful things for us to enjoy and not just blogs of innuendo knocking something you know little or nothing about, because you see that it is getting some notice.
Weirdharold’s response: All I can say to the first part of your statement is horse manure! If he is having to spend that many hours pulling this charitable event together it can only because people aren’t buying into it! Now Montian Gilruth, who is probably the driving force behind the Mill Pond Folk Festival, has invested a huge amount of time pulling that event together…. care to guess hat his profit will be. That is right, he will spend money out of his own pocket because he loves live music and musicians in Second Life.
PS. one last error in the many you have made. “Second Life’s Premiere Rock Performer” is a title given to mankind tracer in a review by a reviewer at one of his concert performances. The billing title is not from him but from an outside reviewer…
Weirdharold’s response: It matters not where the tag “Second Life’s Premiere Rock Performer” came from, at least not once he adds it to his own billing and used it as his own…. he sure didn’t say one reviewer in his note card now did he?
Again I say I admire you for taking a stand to support Mankind, few will do so.
I again want to tell you I did not say Mankind was a scammer, I simply laid out figures and facts and asked a question. I look forward to hearing about all the good work he is doing with new talent wanting to perform. There are several open mics each week where new people are able to get their start.
Above all else, even though I disagree with most of what you had to say, I stand up for your right to say it! And admire you for taking the time to say it.
June 7th, 2007 • 
Weirdharold • 
comment | June 7, 2007 at 16:39 | individual comment-link
“Weirdharold’s response: I never said this was a scam. I simply asked a question.”
You said “Benevolent Benefactor or Scammer? “ and ended with “Maybe it is just my thoughts, but it seems the true benefactor in all this is Mankind Tracer. “ There is no question there. Asked and answered is the phrase. You asked a question and answered it the way you want the reader to believe. So now you are lying to try to remove your culpability? I did searches looking for “weirdharold cave” as an event producer or any kind of contributor other than just someone who shoots down what some people do, but has done NOTHING himself. Why don’t you let us all know who you really are since you imply you have a paid account and have done so many great and wonderful deeds there.
You aren’t by chance associated with the “events” you plugged are you? Just sour grapes from you trying to get publicity for your events while tearing down another’s and doing it anonymously as weirdharold cave? Right now you don’t have the guts to stand up and let us know who you really are so we can see all of your “good works”. You are the scammer hiding behind an anonymous id and spouting libelous statements as though they are fact. I wished I could say I admire you for what you do. But I don’t. I don’t need you to stand up for My right to say anything.
The only line of truth in your entire diatribe against mankind tracer was your first line where you say “I am not familiar with Mankind Tracer”. You should have stopped there.
When you don’t know anything about a subject, you should not then try and expound upon it. The rest of your response is simply a meta discussion where you try to divert attention from your mean spirited lies and innuendo. I don’t defend your right to make libelous statements here. You owe mankind tracer an apology. And you owe the readers here the truth about who you really are because as weirdharold cave, you come off sounding like a curmudgeon with nothing of value to say.
I am Harleywood Guru and I am in Aden and you can come and judge for yourself. I don’t talk behind any other id’s. As weirdharold the curmudgeon, you aren’t man enough to stand in mankind tracers shadow. I await your apology, but I won’t hold My breathe.
comment | June 7, 2007 at 17:27 | individual comment-link
I certainly wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you! For an apology you will never receive. I addressed each of your points, and you come back with nothing more to say than personal attacks?
Readers, I will not respond to personal attacks. I see no need in wasting the time, I published the note card from which I gathered the information. I suspect you can make your own determination.
comment | June 8, 2007 at 06:35 | individual comment-link
What really puzzles me is the big “producer advertiser whatever” team that supposedly is needed for any kind of live event. Guess all the folks who do theirs without that big overhead must be doing something wrong …
It’s fascinating how it starts out as talking about what a musician is worth (where I am happy to throw in my lindens and my support, in those cases where I am involved) and then switches to talk about the part of some kinds of events that I usually put down as “scam”, because it’s loads of people who actually don’t do zilch in SL but rip off the musician who employs them.
Yes, you need advertising and organization – but come on, what do you need a production whatever to _sell_ an idea of something other people do regularily on SL? If you need someone to sell you the idea of doing an event on multiple sims, you really should crawl up from below your rock, because the last year must have been gone by you without you noticing anything. Get real. There are only so many things that need to be done for an SL event and that’s spread on a few people easily – and oftentimes those people do their chore for free and fun. I still have to see any “promoter” doing anything in SL worth the money you throw at them …
So in a way – if the big talk about the big team has any substance, there is another alternative to benevolent benefactor and scam artist: scam victim
comment | September 5, 2007 at 03:03 | individual comment-link
A 2 hour event isnt a significantly large event to be making such a hubub about.
I have heard Mankind Tracer play several times and I enjoy his show and consider him a talented musican and a great addition to the SL community. If his intentions are pure in regard to the new artists program then it is a worthy and worthwhile idea and deserves support.
However, I have become aware recently of a lot of self promotion from mankind’s direction to the point where it is getting annoying. There are plenty of other artists in SL that are as good as or better than mankind, depending of course on your personal preferences. The tagline “SL’s Premier performer” to me is an insult to the community and the other artists that comprise it. I have seen mankind place lengthy ad’s for his venue in groups that specifically prohibit the advertising of venues, and again that is a mark of disrespect to all the other venue owners that specifically hold back from doing the same, and to the people kind enough to set up and maintain the groups. In short I find his attitude to be condescending.
There are several other venues in sl that put on regular large events weekly and for free. The Cascadia sim hosts 2 shows a week usually of 6-8 hours duration featuring the best musicians in sl, I know that they dont pay more than maybe 2-3k for a performer and the performers are always back and are always pleased to perform. On the menorca sim there are live music events almost every day of the week and I am almost certain that they only pay tips.
I have been interested in sl music since I started sl 3 years ago and include several musicians, venue owners and organisers among my friends, and I know that 10000L$ is a rediculous amount of money to pay a musician, unless you are particularily wealthy and can run a venue at those costs. From my experience I would guess that venues pay on average about 2-3k. No ofence to Mankind, but compared to a lot of the rest of talented musicans in sl, he isnt in any way special enough to be insisting on larger fees, or, again, to be making claims that he is the best.
Harleywood, your part in this discussion ended when you resorted to personal attacks.
My apologies for hiding behind an alt for this post as I dont want any conection to be drawn between my opinions and those of the people that I work with on the music scene.
comment | September 5, 2007 at 05:29 | individual comment-link
Well Fenris (or whoever you are);
The difference between you and I, is that I stand up and take full responsibility for what I say, while you, under the guise of protecting someone around you or being sensitive, hide behind an alt and level innuendo and attacks with impunity. Perhaps anything you have to say would carry some weight, if you were big enough to stand up and say it AND take responsibility for saying it instead of hiding behind an alt and taking pot shots. And personal attacks don’t exist where there is no person. So if I say you are a sleezebag for taking pot shots without responsibility, it’s not personal because I am only talking about the meaningless drivel of an alt. Stand up and be counted. Say what you have to say and take responsibility for saying it. Hiding behind an alt just makes what you say a meaningless fart on a virtual wind. It just stinks up the place without having any substance to it. If you are afraid to take responsibility for what you say then shut the hell up. The rest of your noise sounds like jealousy and trying to justify being a cheapskate. (laughing out loud) 10,000 lindens is about $37. If that is going to break you then you don’t do any concerts in real life do you? Where is your CD, your studio cuts, your original work. You started SL 3 years ago and you still can stand up and take responsibility for what you say? Haven’t learned much in 3 years have you.
I am Harleywood Guru and the preceding is entirely My own response and responsibility.
Those around Me have their own minds and use them regularly.
They don’t need Me to use them as a reason to hide when I say what I think.
comment | September 5, 2007 at 06:28 | individual comment-link
Fenris,
I appreciate what you have said although I disagree with the majority of it. I will not expend my finger muscles to reflect on all particular instances however, I will simply say firstly, the title of “SL’S Premiere Rock Performer” was not self labeled. I am honored by the title and yes I do agree there are many, many talented artists in SL who are as good or better than me. However, it is to be decided by a majority, not an indivudual’s claim, as to whether or not an SL artist is worth a crap!
Secondly, the amount which venue owners are willing to pay for my performances is paid out of their own decision to pay it and of course their affordability. If they find I am worthy of L$2k, that’s what they pay, if it’s L$10K, then so be it! Further, if you are so knowledgable about me, then you would know that I also play for free quite often, a fact you failed to mention. I sometimes do this to help newer veneus get a boost as I usually draw close to 100 ppl at my performances (since this is the max that most sims can handle). If they were able to hold more, there would be more. The smaller sims that only hold 40 people will usually crash before I arrive to take the stage, since there are at least that many in attendance before I arrive.
I don’t know about other artists’ fees nor am I concerned with them. I am here to play music and do my part to bring something, that which I as an individual can offer, into SL; that being my music. I HAVE seen other artists charging exhorbitant amounts from residents for their concert tickets. I do not personally charge residents for my performances, nor will I.
I offer that if you are at odds with my methodology, turn the other cheek. There are many residents in SL that will stand up and be counted as fans of mine but more than that, my friends. I am not here in SL or RL for that matter to please everyone, nor will I try. If you truly feel the need to attack someone, try putting your attention to those who deserve it.
I disagree with using a public forum to attack a person. If you have a problem with me or my actions, stand up man! Don’t be such a pussy! Talk to me personally and do it without hiding behind an alt. I am available to anyone who contacts me.
Mankind Tracer – SL’s Premiere Rock Performer!
comment | September 5, 2007 at 16:24 | individual comment-link
Harleywood, wow… just.. wow.
Mankind, I am glad you are joining the discussion.
Honestly, I have been to three of your performances and enjoyed them thoroughly.
The new artists program is a great idea if excecuted properly.
I know you are open to negotiation on your fee as are all SL musicians I know of. And to state a rediculously high price like 10k is probably the first step of a negotiation technique, and that is fine too.
And i also understand that a number of sl musicians are in the business to make a living, and though I disagree that sl is really the place for that, I have nothing against people trying to do so, and attempting to get paid an amount similar to what they would get for a rl performance.
Regarding contacting you personally to discuss this; I do not think this is a personal matter. Rather one that the sl community at large should be aware of.
Let me quote the original article for reference to my subsequent questions:
“Mankind is attempting to plan a “big” two hour rock concert, broadcast over 20-30 sims, with the cost to the sim owner being a staggering $8000 lindens per venue… but wait … half of that will go to start “Mankind Tracer New Artist Program”…. hmmm 30 X 8000 = $240,000.00 Lindens… half… $120,000 lindens is going to start the “Mankind Tracer New Artist Program” to “provide promising new SL musical artists, who have shown initiative and strong work ethics, the opportunity to play live in SL by way of a free stream, introductions to club/sim owners and help in developing their in world talent.” – Weirdharold.
Firstly I want to ask you if you think a 2 hour show should be considered a major event. Even if the rest of SL considered you to be “SL’s Premiere Rock Performer!” The amount of money involved and the widespread nature of the event really begs for a longer more impressive lineup, (no offence)
I recall an event at Menorca slightly less than a year ago. Had a lineup of maybe 10 performances and was to my knowledge the first major event where sl musicians from around the world played together at the same time in the same song (multicasting?). It was an impressive event. And ya know what? It was free. Honestly I would have payed a cover charge for that even though i am against charging for music in sl. As mentioned before, go to cascadia on a saturday night and it will help you define what a big rock concert is. 8 hours of live music from some of sl’s best rock performers new and established.
The money involved could hire a seriously impressive lineup. However as it is considered a charity event I know you could make a great lineup just from volunteers. So why is it just you?
“I HAVE seen other artists charging exhorbitant amounts from residents for their concert tickets.” I have never seen this myself. In fact I dont understant how that would even work. Venues tried to set a cover charge a long time ago and it caused a serious rift in the community. It was discussed recently among venue owners and caused another major argument. And it simply cant work as sl artists play multiple venues and if one is charging and another isnt the residents go to the one that isnt. Would you mind telling us what was the circumstances of that event?
Staying on the subject of money, What exactly will this money be used for? Helping new artists is a great goal, but it doesnt require huge amounts of money. It requires helping them understand the virtual live medium they are now in and helping them get exposure and gigs. Is the money for prim guitars? Stream rental isnt that expensive, around 4k for a month as i understand it, and you wont need a stream for each artist as they will not all be playing together. Hiring helpers for the musicians? I know a long queue of people who are live music enthusiasts that will gladly give their time for free. Is it for rl advertising and promotion? For making the bridge to rl through cd production? Could you please explain that to us.
Now i would like to address your self promotion which, as i have said, I find a bit condescending. I dont mean this as a personal attack rather as a statement of opinion.
Slim Warrior created the Independant Musicians group for the purpose of musicans to advertise performances. She specifically states that it is not to be used for promotion of venues, even by musicians. I have owned and know people who own live music venues and we would love to advertise our places on that group, but we dont as it is against the rules. I have seen you do just this exact thing more than once, a while back when you were opening a stage ascociated with the mtnap and more recntly I think when you opened your self titled venue. Do you think these actions are reasonable? Or was it just a genuine mistake?
“SL’s Premiere Rock Performer!” Can you please let us know who it was exactly that said that and in what publication please? I know you seem to think that just cause someone said that about you it is reasonable to put it in every bit of promotional text ascociated with you. I could easily start an sl publication and become a reviewer for it and state that someone is SL’s best performer ever! Would it make it correct? Would the person be justified in using it as a personal motto? I dont think so. What is your opinion on that please?
I believe that you are of the school of thought that if you act as if something is true and get enough people believing and repeating it that it becomes true. And that is a perfectly fine strategy that has probably worked for you in the past, and is working for you now if you use group size and pesonal wealth as a measure of success. I wont tell you how to do business. But sl is a tight community and such an attitude will likely piss some people off. If your goals are fame and money that is a fine, people love rock stars for their arrogance, but understand that some people will question your motives.
Please dont take this as an attack against you I am interested in hearing your responses and am willing to change my opinions based upon your replies and subsequent actions.
I look forward to reading your replies.
Thanks for your time.
comment | September 5, 2007 at 22:51 | individual comment-link
wow fenris just wow… I would hope that no one even bothers to reply “wow” to you until you decide to say who you are and why you have such a self interest in this. ghosts don’t deserve a response. HG
comment | September 7, 2007 at 10:22 | individual comment-link
I’m a real avatar and paid account and I’m interested in the responses to some of the points Fenris raises. Sarcasm and vitriol just don’t do it for me. I personally won’t be attending or supporting any of these events unless I’m made to understand why it takes so many people and so much money to do what so many others are doing for free or for a very modest average fee of 2-3k. By the way, I’m not taking Fenris’s word for that figure. I have several venue owner friends and know that to be the norm in the large venues, at least in the ones which aren’t tips only. Only the smaller venues who are trying to establish themselves (and rarely last more than a month or two) pay more on average.
comment | September 7, 2007 at 10:53 | individual comment-link
The fact is I ended up doing the big benefit concert free for all 12 venues. After rethinking, I didn’t feel it prudent to charge anything for a venue to offer their space for this benefit concert. I really wish people would get their facts straight before making assumptions.
The fact is, many startup venues ask me to perform, to which I often volunteer to play for free. Sure I make descent L$ in tips as I usually pack the venues. I hope this clears up any misconceptions.
As far as the label given to me, I do not know the exact date but I believe it was an SL Enquirer reporter who wrote something along the lines of “Mankind Tracer’s fans dub him ‘SL’s Premiere Rock Performer’, and we agree”. You are free to contact them for a transcript if it still exists.
Lastly, as much as I would love to, I cannot spend my time picking off every point someone makes. I own two RL businesses which are what I need to focus on. If you happen to catch me inworld for a few minutes, I would be happy to talk. I further cannot tolerate drama in either SL or RL. That being said, I offer this as I my final post here.
All the best.
M
comment | July 9, 2008 at 16:26 | individual comment-link
holy crap weirdharold! more effort went into defending your point then your actual initial post! lol, on your camping comment and hogging bandwidth, it would be hard (read: impossible) to earn anywhere near a fraction of the Linden’s that were mentioned as being given away. lol, $2L every 10 minutes is a slow go
i also donate a lot to sl, first I am a mentor and donate a few hours a week to sl, second I donate a lot of land and my time as a builder for groups such as the Deaf isl, and the eLearning Guild. donate? i don’t get much out of it (a few flickr pics is about it, woot). i will also be donating the use of a full sim for two months to the latter group. and finally, i probably give away about $4000L a week. to noobs, some friends, and strangers that seem to have a passion isl. maybe i am a big sucker, but i prefer to belive that people are typically good. i would hate to view it the other way around
why? cause if sl prospers, it helps me. maybe i can’t measure much of that, but maybe it makes the diff in one person or two and so on. and maybe sl is around longer? sl only exists and succeeds on the efforts of it’s residents.
i am personally not into concerts, or anything audio based, but am glad that it is a great outlet and mechanism for peeps to share their passion with others.
and one thing i most love about sl is the collaboration. why just today, what could easily have been construed as a very aggressive act turned out to be a glimpse at a very passionate, and well balanced person. they indeed know who they are and thank you
ps – this is all just my opinion and nothing more